Besides being Bushes fault. Someone pleaseexplain to me why people need to buy m-16's and AR-15s what the hell for!

@ Vigilanti. Civilians can't buy M16's. That's an assault weapon. The AR-15 is a customizable rifle with a huge aftermarket following and a variety of configuration options. It's also used in sport shooting, hunting, and just like any other semi-automatic, could be used for self-defense.

Actually Vigilanti and Matt, there are a couple legal paths for civilians to own them.

And it may be Vigilanti that in your particular world view you don't see any need for anyone to own these, but there are others that do. Part of living in a free society includes the possibility that others may own something that you don't want or care for.

It didn't take The Onion very long to hit the nail squarely on the head.... http://www.theonion.com/articles/sadly-nation-knows-exactly-how-colorado-shootings,28857/

The idea that more guns will cure gun violence runs akin to the idea of leeches being an effective medical treatment.

The last I heard, leeches are an effective medical treatment in several situations, look it up. Guns as a tool have appropriate uses too, like any other tool. Please don't lead us down the the path that everything that might cause harm should be eliminated, Keith, that would mean banning practically all the tools of modern medicine.

Not terribly surprised that the first one to politicize this tragedy was Keith.

Atrocities’ and tragedies are the manifestations of failed polices. The health of our society bears the scares of those travesties. When it is recognized and dismissed, ignored violence will once again remind us of those failings. This will continue until a sane resolution repairs, replaces those failed policies.
Financial cost to the consumer taxpayer will remain in constant ratio to the degree of the enforcement of corruptive logic. Our scars will deepen with every ambiguity that is demonstrated within our society. Here, and in all nations and their cultures.
One example comes to mind.
NRA taken to the margins of abusive predatory selling. Arizona’s liberal gun laws that allow an 18 yr old to purchase an unlimited amount of firearms. $5,000, $10,000 $100,000 ? Legal weapons purchases are found in the cartels hands! Regressive ideology of days gone by remerge. Cowboys selling guns to the Indians. Arizona’s statements on what they prefer to how illegal immigrants should be addressed, identifies the oxymoron mentality of their goals. Selling guns to the Indians and then plead for help when the Indians begin to attack them and infringe onto their liberties!?
Add that to our Mental institutions in the USA near extinction. Jail is its substitute! Educating the mentally handicap, to a life of hate and crime. Mix the two and viola, tragedy. Again at what cost? Who is forced to pay these abominations of the republican “Party First” destructive policies. ?

Look at this Lunatic referring to himself in the 3rd party. Beware of this nutcake

Wow man. It would be refreshing if we as a country had the maturity of the Amish after the shocking mass killing of little girls a few years -- a testimony towards real faith -- or the way Norway is handling their mass killing.

Getting down to this guy's level is not a way to run a civilization.

It would be refreshing if you would not judge "we as a country" based on the comments of a few. I would bet that even the "maturity of the Amish" was tarnished by a few emotional comments, at the time of that tragedy. We should not get down to this guy's level, but we should also get off our high horse.

The Amish who believe in in-breeding, child pedophlia, and multiple wives thats what you consider being mature. God help us all!

The Amish most certainly do not practice polygamy. For an ignorant comment, that was more ignorant than most.

@vigilanti...You know absolutely nothing about the Amish and to make such statements of mis-facts requires a response. First of all, the Amish do not believe in polygamy in any way shape or form. That is isolated to the splinter groups of Mormonism such as the FLDS. Secondly, the Amish are pacifistic in both their dogma and actions. The tenets of their religion embrace anti-violence. Third, where in the world would you get the idea that the Amish are pedophiles? If you are, in fact, referring to earlier or teen marriages, their demographics indicate that their age at marriage is in the late teens and early twenties. Again, I think you are confusing the Amish with the FLDS sects.

I understand there is a lot violence involving mass killing of innocents. Wondering if this incident my end up being a turnoff to the movie.

It was kind of like watch the collapse of the WTC towers live. It hit me that this is like what we would see in disaster films, only these were real lives ending in front of our eyes.

@Taoist -

"... but some will certainly see it as evidence that there weren't enough guns in that movie theater."

Thanks for the insight Michael Moore!

Hoffa, go lick a doorknob.

Apparently he thinks your Asian hof

http://tinyurl.com/ce9q94n

So, can we expect a 'Bowling for Columbine 2: Aurora' to be in wide release in the near to immediate future?

It's too bad that Moore won't be able to harass Charlton Heston this time around!

Ha! Oh Steve, you're a lunatic and you never make any sense, but that was hilarious.

I don't know what you do at night but man these Asian chicks have a thing for door knobs. I learn something new every day.

My bad - Michael Moore would never recycle a topic.

Instead, he'll use this new tragedy to take on the real evil that has infiltrated this country - super hero films and the greedy and corrupt movie studios that produce them!

@Steve -

If I attempted to mimic the actions of Asian females, even if it was at his own insistence, Taoist would probably accurse me of being ethnically/racially insensitive and a woman hater.

BTW - Interesting discovery :-)

@JRH -- Someone did that very thing. Louie Gomert.

"It does make me wonder, with all those people in the theater, was there nobody that was carrying a gun that could have stopped this guy more quickly?" he asked.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/20/louie-gohmert-aurora-shootings_n_1689099.html?utm_hp_ref=politics

12 people dead and that's where you want to go right now. Idiot.

disgusting

@Bren -

Are you for real?

Brian Ross

@Bren -

I'll try to see if I can be as moronic and insensitive as you:

Could this tragedy be a set-up by the anti-gun rights Obama administration to take the heat off the botched Operation Fast & Furious of his Justice Department and the ensuing scandal that continues to unfold around it, and to further their agenda of destroying the 2nd Amendment? For liberals, it's all about the greater good, so what's the sacrifice of 12 innocent people if it leads to more successful gun restrictions / regulations in this country or the abolishment of the 2nd Amendment all together? The ends would have definitely justified the means. It would also provide Obama with some fresh campaign material that may be effective in swaying independents in a close election while the country is still shocked and stunned. Coincidence?

Or, maybe the shooter was nothing more than a plant from Michael Moore so that he could have some fresh material and suffering to exploit in yet another one of his out-to-change-the-country documentaries?

Obviously, we will learn more about the murderer's agenda as he took great effort to ensure his survival.

How'd I do? Did I throw in enough politically biased conspiracy theories and spin the facts of the issues enough to suit a predisposed ideological outcome?

@Bren - Obviously, the connection between Limbaugh's comments and the tragedy overnight at the movie theater are on the nation's mind. The negative commenters to your post are, of course, trying to suppress discussion of this deadly important topic by humiliating your reasonable query. They happen to be some of the most ardent supporters of guns and Rush on Patch.

@Dirk -

Actually, Hoffa doesn't have a use for guns, nor is he a Rush Limbaugh fan.

Hoffa is more of a flame thrower and Michael Savage kinda guy!

If you honestly think that Bren's query on this subject was appropriate and relevant, then you're just as big of a conspiracy theory nut as Bren is!

Dirk, feel free to discuss the "connection". Far be it from me to attempt to dissuade you from showing your true colors. Expand on it, run with it, wrap yourself in it. Use 12 tragic deaths as an opportunity to attempt to score some political points. Show everyone just how low you can go. Idiot.

McBride - I am not running with it, just that it is on the nation's mind, and that should be discussed,openly, whether you want to or not. And what is it with your calling Bren and me idiots. This is a sensitive topic, let's have some class.

Neither you or Bren are treating it as a sensitive topic. You're attempting to score political points at the expense of 12 dead people. You're both idiots for doing so.

I think that was pretty clear the first time I mentioned it, however I can continue to reiterate if it's not getting through to you.

You can continue to look like an idiot, or crawl back in your hole. Your choice.

@Hoffa - I do not suspect a conspiracy. The nation is wondering, however, about a possible cause and effect. Circumstantial evidence at least is in play as Rush made some comments about the movie a couple days before the gunman struck, so the nation is right to wonder.

I am surprised your conspiracy theories on this do not involve the Kennedy family for once!

@Dirk -

"The nation is wondering, however, about a possible cause and effect."

So, in other words, you, Bren, and others are looking to point the finger. The guy is a homicidal murderer. That's all we need to know.

You're obviously insinuating that the guy is a right-wing extremist who listened to Rush and was under the belief that the film was nothing more than a propaganda attack piece against Romney, therefor all patrons of the film must have been left-wing extremists that he felt compelled to eliminate.

Yeah, that's definitely not a conspiracy theory!

One question:

Ed Schultz said this on his radio program shortly before the Wisconsin recall elections:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OB3j9fpTKkk

Ed Schultz visits the City of Racine shortly before the recall election.

A ton of irregularities are reported with the way the election went down in the City of Racine.

And yet, no one from your side sees a possible connection. But you do see a possible connection between Rush and this event?!?!

And you honestly don't see how this is ludicrous (not the hip-hop artist)?

The Kennedy's are probably the ones behind this insane conspiracy theory that the left has drummed up to earn political points!

@JRH -- I think the shooter is probably mentally ill, and you never know what will set someone off when they're delusional.

@Randy1949 -

OK. So, should we fool-proof our society to make sure that another mentally ill person is never set-off again? But if anything can set-off a mentally ill person....

No, you can't fool-proof society, although it wouldn't hurt to dial down some of the rhetoric. This does seem to be quite a coincidence. Maybe it was just the thing that his unhinged mind fixed upon.

@Randy1949 -

OK, so how come you're not asking people like Bren to knock off the anti-American rhetoric about Romney just because of his off-shore investments / bank accounts?

Or all the ALEC and Koch Bros rhetoric about Walker?

If that's the case, then morninmist shouldn't be allowed to post anything on Patch anymore!

Come on - you honestly believe that Rush's comments set-off a PhD student?

McBride - The frustration and confusion in you is boiling over. Yes, this is another strike against guns for everyone and possibly, Rush. A concern is that, if Rush did set Holmes off, he needs to make a public statement to try to tell his avid supporters that he is only entertaining folks, and not to take him that seriously. There are such things as copycat crimes. You are the one being polarizing, and, once again, repetitively calling concerned people idiots degrades you and your opinion.

12 people dead, numerous others injured and you want to make this about Rush Limbaugh and guns. You've earned the title Dirk and, apparently, you're intent on making sure you hold onto it. You don't need any help from me in that regard.

The latest I have heard is that the murderer dyed his hair red shortly before the massacre. Apparently a Batman villain has red hair?

Bob, Mr. Hoffa, others, it's difficult to make sense of an act like this. The foolishness about "Bane" began soon before this senseless ask, and it was not an unreasonable question. The horrific case of Gabby Giffords and those who died in Arizona, abortion clinic bombings, the Oklahoma City bombing, etc., were all senseless but they happened.

Dirk, I am not surprised by the responses of Bob McBride, Steve, and James R Hoffa. None of these individuals are careful readers, they missed the interrogative at the end of the sentence. I would never want them to change, they are amusing. ; )

Okay, Bob McBride. So "Hoffa" is an idiot for trying to make points about Michael Moore at 2:34 PM today (see above)? Be consistent now - if it's idiocy to try to make political points in the wake of a tragedy, then call him out for it. Otherwise, back in your hole!

McGuire - 12 people dead and many injured, and we should all stop thinking about why for a few days. Sure would not want you in a crisis. Pretty sure the investigating authorities are not taking your advice like that. The conservative blogs I checked are suggesting that talk of connections with Rush and the Tea Party be denied and stifled, so this appears to the public like just another nut acting alone and without provocation, and things will die down.

Damage control is not your forte as you call people that disagree with your extremist and dangerous agenda IDIOTS.

I don't think the question mark defense is going to work for you, Bren, but I can certainly understand the desperate attempt to salvage some dignity. You stepped in a pretty big pile of it.

At least you're not doubling down like ol' Dirk here. I'll give you credit for that.

Tao, you initiated that waltz through the poop yourself with your presupposing folks seeing this as evidence of not enough guns in the theater. Wipe your shoes off before you climb up on your high horse.

Bob, no need to be defensive. I respect other posters and read comments carefully before responding (or ask for clarification). I would certainly appreciate the same respect.

McBride - You assume the last word and most obstinate debater on a topic wins. That is not how debate works, and you are still on the personal attack thing. Can't you see people are concerned about this tragedy and how to prevent another one like it?
You blew the match with calling dissenting and concerned people IDIOTS, and repeatedly, and for just caring about possible causes and preventions for such an unbelievable carnage.

Now you're just being childish, Bren.

This is a serious issue and those who've suffered because of it deserve better than to be used as pawns in someone's attempt to get political digs in - even if there's no possibility of them ever being aware of it happening.

I really don't think the time frame between Limbaugh's comments and the shooting provide for the type of planning that was involved in this tragedy. Even if the shooter does try to link the comments to his activity, their is nothing that can be done. A person with the shooters mindset could go off on anything that anyone says. How would you prevent it? Is this not similar to the claims that were made about playing albums backwards?

@Bren -

Please cite your source that indicates that Holmes may have been an avid Rush Limbaugh listener.

Absent something concrete, it's nothing but foolish speculation, conjecture, supposition, ... or in other words, the kind of conspiracy theory nonsense that you love to relish in!

@Dirk -

"Can't you see people are concerned about this tragedy and how to prevent another one like it?"

We've only been senselessly killing each other since the dawn of our species. Do you honestly think that there's something special about what happened here that you'll be able to study, learn from, and effectively apply to prevent future similar events?

Are you honestly that naive?

But let's hypothetically say that you and the other lefty nut jobs are right and that Holmes point the finger entirely at Rush Limbaugh's comments. What do you propose we do to fix the situation?

@Bren -

"Bob, Mr. Hoffa, others, it's difficult to make sense of an act like this."

And you honestly think that you'll ever make sense of this act? What was the sense in the acts committed by Manson? By Dahmer? By Armin Meiwes? By...

Sometimes, there isn't a logical or rational explanation to things - especially when it comes to our species!

What if the answer is just an indifferent attitude and he thought it would be fun because life just started to seem a little too boring to him? Would you accept that answer? Or would you go on trying to point the finger at some outside influence/reason?

You want an answer Bren, well, this is the best one you're going to get - because the guy was an @sshole!

Satisfied?

Bob McBride,

My statement that some will see this as evidence of a need for more weapons in public, and not more, was simply a statement of fact. It wasn't value-laden, it wasn't prescriptive, and it wasn't judgmental. And, of course, it was absolutely correct.

"Hoffa's" subsequent bleating about Michael Moore (in 5 separate comments) was antagonistic political opportunism. Learn the difference, and turn some of your self-righteous indignation on the people you ostensibly agree with.

What I love is when these incidents happen people who need their male enhancement devices argue -- don't politicize the situation.

Well boys, the situation has been politicized along time ago. Politicized by cynical politicians who want to manipulate the immature who want to play cowboy. Politicized by laws that enable access to dangerous weapons that have no place in a civilization.

This fantasy that people are going "to protect themselves" is really more of the fake populism that is making this country drop like a stone in so many measures.

Tao, your comment starts out by cautioning against politicizing the event and ends up doing precisely that. It's right up there for all to read and really requires no further clarification on your part. It's not that complicated. It's also not on the same level as that of Bren and Dirk, which is why I didn't involve myself with it until you decided you'd weigh in in this thread.

As for their claim that they're only expressing concern about possible causes of this event, they've essentially singled out one such "cause" and focused on that exclusively. Dirk's claim that the "nation" was discussing this possibility prompted me to look around quickly at some of the more general news/discussion websites and from what I was able to gather, there were a number of different scenarios being pondered, reported on and discussed and I didn't once stumble on this particular one.

If people can't get beyond their own obsessions with the political (or paranoid obsessions with secret Muslims, as noted below) long enough to weigh in sensibly on a topic such as this, then it's best they don't at all. Frankly, I'm pretty sure the folks at Patch knew it would degenerate into something like this, as discussions always do around here. Which is fine with a topic less sensitive and less serious than this one. They have the ability to report w/o adding a comments section. This would have been one of those instances when doing so would have been appropriate.

Bob, interesting for a name-caller to accuse someone else of being childish. This is a serious topic, and you have embarrassed yourself.

Mr. Hoffa, you wrote, in the comments of this serious conversation, the statement, "Michael Keaton will forever be the best Batman!" Clueless. Like Bob, you have embarrassed yourself.

Bren, the damage is done. Trying to shift focus away from your idiotic, insensitive attempt to take a truly serious topic and utilize it to play political games isn't going to work. The best thing for you to do at this point would be to put your oversized ego in check and apologize.

Bob, I agree the damage has been done. This is a discussion board. I wondered, in narrative format, if this tragedy could be yet another incident similar to the Gifford, Oklahoma City, etc., mass murders/attacks. You flew off the handle at me and Dirk and made a fool of yourself; namecalling just reinforces your cluelessness and shoves that foot further into your mouth. Give it a rest.

@Taoist -

REALLY?!?!

As Bob correctly identified, the only reason I busted out Michael Moore was in response to your foolishness.

Also, how is mentioning Michael Moore attempting to politicize or antagonize the situation exactly? Is the left actually claiming him as one of their own?

I know that sometimes it's hard to pick-up on emphatic posts, but I thought that those were pretty self-explanatory!

Maybe the problem is that Taoist, Bren, Dirk and others are so dense in their hatred for the political right that it has effected their ability to actually see the objective reality. For them, the perception of their hatred has become reality.

Now, that's a truly scary realization, isn't it?!?!

Bren, this was a non-political incident. It didn't involve someone holding political office, as did the Gifford case. It's not a logical question to pose unless your intent is to attempt to stir up a hornets nest by introducing a political aspect into the discussion. Feigning some other motive at this point while attempting to shift focus is as transparent as can be. You're fooling no one.

@Bren -

"Mr. Hoffa, you wrote, in the comments of this serious conversation, the statement, "Michael Keaton will forever be the best Batman!" Clueless. Like Bob, you have embarrassed yourself."

People needlessly died. It was a tragedy. Any reasonable person would recognize it as such and send their condolences to the families of the victim's, which Hoffa acknowledged in his original post.

The victims, having attended a midnight screening of Batman, were more than likely big fans. My comment in regards to the motion picture was out of deference to that fandom - Hoffa wanted to remember the victims as something more than those who were just gunned down by a psychopath. Hoffa was also trying to add a bit of humility, out of such deference, to an otherwise dark/sad situation. Hoffa considers such to be appropriate under the circumstances and is not in any way embarrassed by his previous comment.

You, on the other hand, exploited the situation in using the opportunity of the tragedy to pose a hyperpartisan, unsubstantiated conspiracy theory. Again, I ask for the cite to your source that Holmes may have been an avid Limbaugh listener and that he was definitely listening when Rush was ranting about the new Batman film. I've scoured the net in search of such information, but nothing reliable/credible has turned up.

Why don't you just admit that your premise is without merit?

Once again, conservatives have a persecution complex, and see political bias and maneuvering where it isn't there.

The statement, "I see it as a sobering reminder of the difference between real violence and fantasies of violence, but some will certainly see it as evidence that there weren't enough guns in that movie theater," is an acknowledgement that people of different political persuasions will see this event different ways. To call that statement itself politically charged is to be a paranoid right wing loon. And yes, "paranoid right wing loon" is antagonistic political rhetoric, but that seems to be the only language Hoffa and McBride understand.

@Taoist -

If you didn't intended your statement as "antagonistic political rhetoric," then why didn't you also include the fact that some (on the other side of the political aisle) would "certainly see it as evidence that there [were too many] guns in that movie theater?" Instead, you specifically focused your comment on the 'some' that would tend to identify with conservative / right-wing political leanings. Given your preferred political ideology, which is known to us via your previous comments on a variety of issues, it becomes clear that such an omission was not accidental, but rather that your singling out of the pro-gun group in your comment was in fact by design.

Spin however you'd like, as that's the liberal way, but those seeking the truth have already found it!

You sir, have been called out!

@ Hoffa - What?

For a paid blogger who's always harping about "reading comprehension," yours is shockingly low. Call out whomever you want - you just look like more of a fool every day.

Our nation is often time confronted with the explosions’ of violence. Undercurrents, that are manifested with the hidden obstacles of our flawed polices, come to rise up to the surface with explosive tragedy’s. We realize that this is more complicated than a simple ban on weapons. It will require that we address the issues that when in combination produces these abominations of humanity.
Two Examples of our flawed policies, that promote a violent confrontation.
These two produce, when combined, explosions of a tragedy occur.
[#1] Is it not Arizona that has the most liberal laws on gun control? 18 year olds can purchase weapons in unlimited amounts! Assault rifles? $ 5,000 $10,000, $100,000 worth of weapons that mysteriously appear in the hands of the drug cartels.
Arizona could be described as an oxymoron state on gun control, with their anti immigration ideologies. Providing legally purchased weapons to the very forces they oppose. Back to the gun runners of yesteryear selling guns to the Indians.
NRA responsible? Of course not.. Yeah Right!

James R Hoffa
5:34 pm on Friday, July 20, 2012

@Randy1949 -

OK. So, should we fool-proof our society to make sure that another mentally ill person is never set-off again? But if anything can set-off a mentally ill person....
Now Hoffa playing the fool again. Will both of the Hoffa’s take note.
[#2] Facilities for the mentally disturbed near extinction, in the USA. Jails to be used as substitutes to the mental institutions? Something here is just not logical in our conclusions, for the solutions we prescribe to, at present.
We presently educate our mentally handicap to a life of violence and crime. Mix a graduate of this system with liberal gun laws and we can perceive and identify one source, that triggers the travesties of violence that are implanted within our society. Exploding time and time again, as conditions allow.
Thus examples of tragedies will continue to emerge. A sane intelligent solution to prevent these abominations’ is required. Is it a financial moral question or the fear that lurks within the darkness of our corruptive failures to our society. Which ever be the motive to act, so be it. Flawed policies can not be ignored. They are but two of the ingredients that advocate these abominations’. Your foolishness is proof that all fools can not be recognized in time.By the way which fool am,I conversing with at this time? Mental institutions is just part of the answere.Not ban guns or coral all the fools either, "BUT" its a start.

@Dirk -

"For someone not really into guns or Rush, you are certainly appearing to be so."

REALLY???

How so? Just because one is a fan of gun rights doesn't necessarily mean that they are a fan of guns, is it?

And Hoffa has already stated that he doesn't listen to Rush, but supports his rights to say whatever he wants to say, no matter how inflammatory or distasteful.

If I'm in the car, I'll tune into Savage or Michael Medved on occasion, but that's as far as Hoffa's talk-radio exposure goes!

The "No Weapons" sign is an assumption of responsibility for ensuring that armed individuals do not cross the threshold. Organizations that post these signs include educational facilities. I believe all can agree that there is no reason for any individual not in law enforcement to be wearing a weapon in a school.

Clearly the words of someone who's never owned or run a business. AWD, should employees at every business be allowed to take weapons to work? Think carefully...

AWD - Please cite the statute, regulation or case law whereby a business is libel for posting a No Weapons sign, and then a customer or employee is denied the opportunity to plug a bad guy who is causing pain and suffering. I would think private businesses would have trouble with even more government regulations in order to impose that dictate.

BTW - How is that campaign to bring back DDT that you have mentioned on other blogs going for ya?

I don't know about other states, but in Wisconsin "Businesses which allow concealed carry on their property are immune from liability arising from that decision. Those wishing to prohibit concealed carry on their property, however, must post signs meeting specific requirements for notification and lose that immunity."

Those "gun free zones' and "no firearms on premises" signs are just a declaration of a free fire zone. Just like schools are. Why do you think these things happen where CCW permit holders who are law abiding can't carry?

In the UK they ban handguns, and guess what?? criminals still use them on an unarmed populace.

Even if this guy couldn't get a gun, judging from his apt booby trapping a bomb would be within his grasp. At least a shooter a person has a chance against.

This is a time for LESS gun control. Not more. Dial 911. Tell me how long it takes for them to get there. I guarantee it'll be longer than the 90 seconds he was attacking in.

Hey Average White Trash. Pain and suffering? Because as a country we have to listen to morons and allow any one access to dangerous weapons. You're an affront to America.

Hey idiot. No doubt up to the second Holmes pulled the trigger Holmes was a law abiding citizen.

What your tiny mind is searching for is that if businesses post signs and an incident happens because of course, ignorant putts like you want to put guns in the hands of everyone, the victims can sue the business.

It makes me sick every time I enter my church because of that sign on the door.

Over 71 families in Colorado are suffering because of garbage like you. But I am sure a gun makes a little man like you feel important.

Hey Keith... calm down there buddy. You really have no grounds getting mad, as you were the first poster trying to make this a political issue. Moronic statements product moronic responses. That is the way of our discourse today.

"Because as a country we have to listen to morons..." Pretty sure that view of our discourse today passes both directions.

AWD - For the first time, I see some moderation in AWD. But why stop at schools and other government buildings when allowing guns? What about Columbine? What about Virginia Tech, etc. What about the "going postal" post offices? Go back to Whitman at the U. of Texas in the sixties. A teacher or student with a .45 magnum could have ended most tragedies like those quickly. Well, unless the bad guy is wearing chest, neck, groin, head, etc. body armor like Holmes, or an AR15 assault weapon that can take out a whole classroom real fast. You see, it all gets insane. Reminds me of the arms race with the U.S.S.R. The solution there was agreeable disarmament. Who needs these easily accessible and legal modern new killer weapons and defenses in society today?

Consider this, AWD, a business owner who does not want guns on their property or around their customers. But because they cannot afford the metal detectors and security guards required to enforce "no guns" they must allow the guns and cannot post the sign. This is not illegal but it takes freedom of choice from the business owner and the customers who don't want to be around people with guns. Unless those people are in law enforcement, their experience with guns will necessarily be more limited. They also (unless they are retired law enforcement officials) lack the expertise to handle a evolving crime scene and an unstable, nervous perpetrator(s). Years ago, a relative of mine was caught in just such a situation. He was having a quick lunch in a coffee shop when a man entered and attempted an armed robbery. A coffee shop clerk grabbed a gun hidden behind the counter and fired at the robber. Being terrified and inexperienced, instead of shooting the robber he killed my relative. To protect a few hundred dollars that weren't even his.

AWD, the Aurora murder had an AR-15 semi-automatic weapon in his arsenal. His legally-obtained weapons allowed him to fire apparently without pause. The Aurora police chief reported seeing thousands of rounds and possibly mortar shells in Holmes' apartment. As an apparent gun supporter, would you consider it unconstitutional to limit civilian gun ownership to non-automatic weapons?

I was waiting for Bren to break out the story of a close friend or family member.

"As an apparent gun supporter, would you consider it unconstitutional to limit civilian gun ownership to non-automatic weapons?"

And what good would this do exactly? Anyone who is absolutely intent on killing a large group of people is fully capable of finding a way to do so, even if automatic weapons are outlawed for civilian use.

Also, there are many non-law enforcement trained people that are experts in responsible firearms usage. My ex-fiance was one. Your presumption that only law enforcement trained personal are capable of responsibly discharging a fire arm in a public non-controlled environment is a subjective opinion, and not an objective fact.

Mr. Hoffa, I don't mention who specific relatives or friends are because, like you, I post anonymously. Obviously there are many skill and experience levels involved in gun ownership. Your motor skills (fingers/mouth) run faster than your cognitive (comprehension/analysis). ; )

@Bren -

I again ask you to cite your source confirming that Holmes was an avid Limbaugh listener, or your admission that you were merely engaging in conspiracy theory politics.

Also, did you have a chance to review Ryan's Path to Prosperity yet so you can show me where he expressly exempts members of Congress and gives $40B+ in tax breaks to oil companies?

Cretin, the guy was dressed up in bullet proof gear.

Only an idiot would believe that more guns solves th problem of gun violence.

Yeah guns don't kill. The NRA does. Monsters.

@Schmitzy -

Take away the guns, and you honestly think that those intent on killing others won't find alternative means of doing so? Are you aware of our history? We've been needlessly killing each other long before the first gun was invented.

According to the Bible, G-d used rain to commit mass homicide. Should we pass a resolution prohibiting everyone the use of water because they could use it to commit a mass murder?

good lord....

Based on what?

Every time a nut goes off we feel we have to try and figure out some sort of motive we think we can deal with going forward to prevent it from happening again. And we end up with idiotic stuff like this.

To paraphrase something attributed to Siggy, "Sometimes a nut is a just a nut".

Can't you read Jimmy? That was the profiler being interviewed on MSNBC.

Trekkers? Please . . . Information is sketchy, but it looks like this guy had some kind of obsession with Batman and the Joker, so perhaps his insanity fixed itself on the Batman franchise. I hope we're no going to start banning media fandoms like we did trenchcoats after Columbine.

Mr. Hoffa, your basic reading retention skills are diminishing. I would recommend reading the material twice and taking notes before responding because it's hard to take a "skimmer" seriously.

The link goes to a video - there's no reading involved here. And MSNBC made the decision to put this quack on the air.

I agree completely, and well said Lyle.

It disturbs me more than a little, how quickly the victims of this terrible tragedy seem to have been left behind, so some could push or promote their particular agenda or world view.

Lets get our thoughts back to where they belong right now, the victims and their families.

Sorry Lyle. I appreciate that you want to settle us down in light of this awful, stupid tragedy, but face it. Politics got us here in the first place.

It is sad that when these things happen is all we can do is mop up the damage. This is madness.

You know full well that other countries in the civilized world don't have to deal with these horrible incidents. The people in the Batman film were made to live the Batman film.

For a country that thinks it is so much into God, then why do we need so many guns?

I was not going to comment on this thread until Lyle dropped in with a bit of sanity.

Don't you remember that the Gabby Giffords et.al. tragedy was just 18 months ago? All the inane and insane political blame game styled commentary was all wrong.

That's because Jay the NRA backed by coring politicians smothered the debate.

@Keith... I did not intend for my comment to appear directed at you, even though it followed your comment. I should have used the term 'everyone', rather than 'you'.

Further illustrative of my point, everyone might recall that Paul Krugman (economist) wrote in his regular column,immediately following the Giffords tragedy, explicitly blaming Sarah Palin for the incident.

Lyle - You hit a foul ball on this one. Most things we do are touched by politics, how do you avoid it or being accused of discussing it when talking about nearly anything? Lives and peaceful ways of life are at stake. Is that politics? Too bad, yes it is. Those gun shops that sold the human killing tools and defenses against such still do a booming business as we speak. The probability of these incidents increases exponentially with more quantity and more powerful weapons.
As you know, history is full of tragedies where danger signs were ignored until it was too late for simple remedies.

Terry - The right-wing posters like you would like us all to just shut up, and are trying to shame those that speak out until things die down, so to speak. You are a political poster in the past, proclaiming Hovde is the best candidate for senator, etc. etc. You were not posting in the past about raising zinnias on a gardening blog.

So the strong inference here is you are making a political statement to suppress discussion.

Keith - Right on, legitimate debate and comments about the "Dark Knight" incident are being smothered until it blows over. They put you on a guilt trip for not being silent. It is actually time for righteous outrage at how easily now nuts can kill massively. Even fertilizer is better controlled than guns since the OK city bombing.

Sorry DIrk to disagree with you. I am more than willing to have this debate. Just not hear and now.

You guys have managed the equivalent of arguing about grandma's property during her funeral.

And Dirk, as your fellows have pointed out in the past, I am a tough one to throw in your little categories. I am a strong FISCAL conservative. But in other areas I am more moderate, such as legalization of pot.

You have no guesses about my stance on gun control, as I haven't given it yet. Nor will I here, as it isn't the time or the place.

Again, the guy was dressed in bullet proof gear.

Display - So if you were in the front row with your sidearm, How likely is it that you would have taken the nut out? You should have had an AR15 or AK47 with armor piercing bullets, or a grenade, with laser sights. I believe once you shot your sidearm, if you got the chance, and actually hit (it would have stung, but not stopped) the gunman in the smoke and chaos, you would have been a real target for a salvo of return fire making you instant mincemeat.

If we want to discuss the politics of firearms and ammunition accessibility, then let us do it on a different post. I will take the initiative and begin the discussion by doing a different blog post.

In a crowded theater, with kids, with everyone completely caught off guard, with no one knowing what's going on, in the middle of a planned incident that takes place over a very few minutes, you think a citizen who just happens to be packing a firearm with jacketed bullets is going to be able to pull it all together and get off an accurate shot and take this guy down? I think you've watched a few too many movies yourself.

You're insane.

AWD, you are a fool. The theater was dark, filled with tear-gas and panicking human beings. All it would need is some stupid cowboy creating a crossfire (and maybe shooting at the wrong person) to double the body count.

AWD - If we could change history, we so wish you would have been sitting in the front row that night, armed with your usual movie going gun, unaware of what was about to happen.

Real purpose of guns are to make little people like George Zimmerman and Average White Trash field important.

Truly? Do the overwhelming majority of law enforcement professionals favor the average citizen carrying firearms with jacketed ammo and firing it during a chaos situation?

Personally, I would not be bothered by the possibility of an off-duty police officer carrying such a thing at all times -- just in case. But the average citizen? Good lord!

Provide a link to one, verifiable professional law enforcement official of some stature who agrees with you that in this situation, with all the afore mentioned aspects to it, a citizen, armed with the appropriate firearm and ammunition and with the minimal amount of training required to carry such a weapon, would have been able to successfully take out this shooter and reduce the degree of carnage involved. One.

Randy1949 - re Displayin 30 plus years of law enforcement with a federal agency. That could be nearly anything. The entire Executive branch is charged with enforcing the laws. Lots of desk jobs there also. Maybe one of those guys that never saw action in the military, and comes back talking about his heroics all the time.

If you had such an illustrious career, why are you hiding behind a screen name?

I'm on pretty good terms with local law-enforcement, enough to ask them how they feel about random citizens carrying armor-piercing ammo. I have very little experience with guns, but I do have a lot of experience with other human beings. I'm aghast that they have the right to vote and drive, much less carry deadly weapons. Everyone thinks they're sane and capable of the responsibility. Even the poor lunatic who killed 12 people yesterday.

Despite all this, I still respect the Second Amendment as much as I do the First.

That article is from August of 2011 and addresses the topic of concealed carry in general. It in no way validates your claim that an armed citizen would have been able to take out the shooter in this instance. You, also, are using this tragic incident to promote a political stance regarding concealed carry. If you're truly in law enforcement, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Pardon me for the mistaken terminology. I'll ask my local law enforcement officers how they feel about every Tom, Dick and Harry carrying a gun with ammo that could get through their vests.

Personally, if I'm in any public place with my loved ones, especially a dark and confusing movie theater, I'd rather not have bullets flying from every direction to worry about, with no reassurance that every wannabe Dirty Harry knows what he's doing.

@Randy1949 -

Dirty Harry?

Don't you mean Paul Kersey?

That's the problem with concealed carry -- a would-be perp never knows if someone might be willing and able to pull a gun on him. However, the average citizen never knows if someone in the crowd is carrying and if that person is a total moron or not.

Where have I ever said I'm anti-gun or anti concealed carry? It's the price of living in a free society that someday I might get shot by a moron or a nut-case. I'd prefer open carry, myself. At least you know what you're dealing with.

Yes, you were incorrect. I'm not anti-gun. I'm anti-moron.

You can't regulate that kind of thing. It's just that a moron with a gun can do more damage than a moron with a vote or a letter to the editor.

At the very least we shouldn't encourage it by saying, "Gee, someone with the right ammo could have taken that guy out." Chances are, in the dark, with the tear gas and confusion, the would-be hero would have missed and hit a fleeing teenager.

Yeah, right. Stolen valor is a legal issue, as well as ethical.

Daniel, doubt if Holmes could have done this as efficiently and effectively with a lovely set of matched steak knives. The steak knives, by the way, have more usefulness in a civilized society than automatic weapons.

@Gary -

Thanks for your support!

If you leave your email, Hoffa can put you on the fan club mailing list ;-)

Leave JRH alone Gary. Delusional egomaniacs have enough issues. Then they learn how to use a computer. They just need to get their meds right. As long as the SS disability gov't. checks come in, we have to deal with them, despite their protests that it is not the case. Just happy that JRH hasn't procreated. There should be laws against that but as JRH and it's half brother Saul call me, I am just the crabby old liberal.

$$andNonsense -

Thanks for the comedy relief - I fell out of my chair from laughing so hard!

@Gary -

We've moved the gun discussion to Lyle Ruble's blog on the issue, which can be found here:

http://mountpleasant.patch.com/blog_posts/how-much-does-easy-accessibility-to-firearms-assure-disasters-like-the-aurora-co-shooting

And just as you desire, Hoffa was sure to weigh in with his insight for you to ponder!

@Gary -

Might I suggest that while reading Hoffa's comments, you may also enjoy a little musical accompaniment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUgglGF4gvs

This is what I mean Gary. Doofa's meds are running out/gone and it is now trying to deflect the issue. Deal with it's type everyday for a living. Have mercy on the mentally impaired. They are God's creatures too. Just don't let them have access to firearms, knives or broken glass. But they still vote. Nothing illegal about the impaired posting on the net. The name calling is also part of the clinical condition. I get this all the time. It impowers them like an 8 year old calling another "you're stupid".

@Bucky -

Check your sources on this, as bananas, coconuts, and oranges aren't typically grown in Wisconsin. It would appear that once again, the Daily Kos has given you some bogus info!

Day late, a dollar short and in the wrong pew.

I could have guessed it was you w/o the original name back intact.

Jimmy, do you take the Onion seriously as well?

I don't think a retraction will be forthcoming. I'd ask people to re-read the string now that the facts are being revealed. It puts a new light on some individual thought process'. Make note of the fact that Bob McBride recommended people cease their partisan foolishness very early in timeline of the string, but they persisted.

Was I wrong for saying it was an odd coincidence? Not really. It looked like an odd coincidence until more information about the shooter's mental state came out. Now, it appears he's a nut who was obsessed with the Batman franchise and had some serious frustration with life. And even that may turn out to be wrong. All the article said was that the rampage had been planned for some time, not that the perpetrator had a specific time and place in mind.

I think you need to go back and read what I said again, Hoffa.

Given the amount of coverage this film has received in numerous venues leading up to its release, there are probably dozens of odd coincidences that might be noted by those inclined to look for them, depending on their personal interests or prejudices. It's still a conscious choice one makes when they decide to inject one into a conversation of the topic at hand.

A lot of stuff had already been injected by the time I commented. I'd as soon take umbrage over the 'trekkie' remark as the fact that Limbaugh had been bloviating again. It was all fair speculation given the scarcity of information at the time. No cause for Hoffa to get the vapours over the liberals being 'divisive'.

Seriously, this is no cause for gun control, encouraging every Tom, Dick and Harry to carry concealed, or the banning of Batman movies.

By far this first two days were no time to speculate that this was some kind of right wing/left wing act of terrorism.

But the idea that this should not be politicized of course plays right into the hands of the NRA, which politicizes this at the cost of lives in Aurora, Virginia, Brookfield and many other places. They have used this issue to make the gullible and the disengaged vote against their self interesst.

In fact right now is the time to politicize this. 71 families have had their lives ruined because the NRA has politicized this issue. Let's use all the pathos and maudlinness to ram this right down the throats of the sociopaths that run this organization that is responsible for the senseless carnage in this country.

So, Randy, I guess having seen some of the "stuff" already injected into the conversation it seemed logical to you to inject a bit more along those same lines.

All right, McBride, I retract. Happy?

It's a shame you have to be goaded into doing so since common sense would dictate one doesn't go there, but whatever it takes I guess.

As Bren said up above, McBride, it's a discussion board. Obviously to you, only certain things are fit for discussion. No room for moderates in this place.

A) We're having a discussion right now. B) "Moderates" have the common sense not to make politically biased quantum leaps into the cause and effect of a tragedy like this one.

Got anything else, Randy?

Maybe if you could tell me what 'quantum leap of cause and effect' I made.

But honestly, I've found it's pointless to discuss anything with you. I'll wait for Hoffa, who at least has a sense of humor

Any suggestion that there's any relationship between something Rush Limbaugh belched out and this incident falls into that category, Randy. Unless you're suggesting that some brainfart caused your hands to involuntarily type out a comment noting that particular coincidence out of the many other equally viable coincidences, you've wandered into that realm yourself.

Personally, I don't think this is a topic in need of a lot of humor at this point, but if that's your preference, bring on the chuckles. I certainly won't be involving myself in that portion of the discussion.

I was merely defending Taoist and Bren by saying it's one reasonable theory. It's no more off the wall than Louie Gomert blaming the shooting on our nation's turning away from Judeo-Christian values.

The guy is most likely a loon. We still don't know his motives for when and where, even though it appears he'd been planning something like this for months.

So feel free to ignore what else I've been saying -- that this is neither an excuse for gun control laws or vigilantism.

It's not reasonable theory, nor is the one Gomert put forth. They're both either looney or disingenuous - or both. Giving either of them credence by suggesting they're "reasonable" does more damage than good.

It's becoming all too common and acceptable for folks to utilize a tragedy of this nature to push a political or personal agenda. In addition to being just plan insensitive, it's dangerous. It distracts from the real issues, distorts the import of the pet issues of those who would do it and makes potential victims of those targeted as supposedly being part of the root cause of the incident.

Hoffa - Gutzmiller thanks the Good Lord you do not have an investigative job. You draw conclusions way too quickly, the wrong conclusions, and you are one of those paranoids that sees conspiracy everywhere, probably because you engage in them. The whole story is not in, yet you and McGuire jump to hasty political conclusions. There was obviously a lot of prepartation involved by Holmes, and that was fairly obvious from earlier reports. I never stated that Limbaugh's statements about the movie being anti-Republican could be the only factor in Holme's actions. But unstable people reach tipping points about whether to go forward with a horrific plan. Did he listen to Rush two days before the carnage? You cannot answer that, now can you. You are speculating and chomping at the bit to accuse. A Rush to judgement, so to speak.
My concern was for the safety of innocents. If Rush tipped Holmes into the final decision, Rush could affect others in a similar way, and a good prevention would be for Rush to retract. The whole theory Rush about the Hollywood conspiracy once again makes Rush appears again to be an extreme fool. The character Bane has been around for a couple of decades, and not invented by movie writers or to reflect on Bain Capital.
At one time, Rush Limbaugh was the leading Republican in Presidential polls. He is much more than "an entertainer". and has the power to direct peoples actions in strange ways, such as with how totally odd Bob McGuire acts.

I mentioned Gomert earlier too. You must have missed that. Fair enough -- they're both unreasonable theories. You want mine?

You have an intelligent young man, possibly with some mental illness, experiencing a lot of frustration in his life recently (unable to find work, possibly failing in his graduate school program) and he snaps. But what prompts a person to take it out on a crowd of innocent people? What got inside his head to make him do it in this way? It's a question that bears asking, and at least this one is still alive for us to ask it.

I wouldn't go beyond mental illness and I'm only willing to go that far based on my personal belief that you'd have to be mentally ill to actually take actions of this nature. As you say, he's alive which is fairly unique I think in cases like this. All the more reason not to speculate at this point and to allow the professionals to do what ever they're able to do to determine what went wrong.

Hoffa - As a companion issue to whether Rush might have pushed Holmes into actually carrying out his diabolical carnage, I invite the reader to read your comments about Rush's conspiracy theory about Bane (Bain Capital) in the Batman movie and Hollywood's conspiracies against the right wing in general. You comments were made before Holmes acted Thursday night. They are in the Paul Doro blog."Politics and the Dark Knight Rises". You were really supportive of Rush's nutball comments about Bane and leftist Hollywood. Thank goodness you have no followers.
http://wauwatosa.patch.com/blog_posts/politics-and-the-dark-knight-rises

I think Hoffa has one follower, Dirk that is sooo sweet.

@Dirk -

If you want to ride the politically motivated conspiracy theory horse until it runs out of gas for lack of corroboration, you're free to do so. Hoffa and McBride are merely pointing out that it makes you, and others who partake in it, look like a bunch of jackasses.

"… and a good prevention would be for Rush to retract."

Yeah, because mentally psychotic people who are tipped over the edge tend to become miraculously sane again when a retraction is offered. I'm so glad that there are people like you out there to make sure that we're all protected against such deranged people that would do us harm by offering such logical and common sensical solutions!

"You were really supportive of Rush's nutball comments about Bane...."

Please provide a quote in support of this accusation.

"Thank goodness you have no followers."

You appear to be pretty interested in following Hoffa's postings!

Hoffa - What you seem to be proposing is that Rush's comments just before the Holmes carnage should never be/have been considered as a contributing factor because of political embarrassment to the far right. When lives are in the balance, call on Hoffa to decide whether it is politically correct or not to take preventative measures. You are on record as agreeing with Rush about his conspiracy theories, even broadening them. Rush seems to have really set you off, and you should have known better, Rush is only "an entertainer". Right.
So you have unequivocably stated that Rush Limbaugh had no influence on Holmes regarding the Bane/Bain remarks? I want to bookmark that. And that the connection between Rush and Holmes was not a rational concern, no matter what the party affiliation? Otherwise, what is your beef at this point?

@Dirk -

Where's the quote I asked you to provide?

"... because of political embarrassment to the far right."

Umm... yeah, try because there's no evidence linking the two events. You want to blame Rush, hey, Hoffa certainly can't stop you from doing so. But Hoffa will point out that it makes you come off as being little more than an exploiting, finger pointing ass. Personally, Hoffa believes that the fault lies solely with James Holmes. It's premised on this concept called personal responsibility - you may want to look it up!

"You are on record as agreeing with Rush about his conspiracy theories, even broadening them."

Again, please provide a quote.

"So you have unequivocably stated that Rush Limbaugh had no influence on Holmes regarding the Bane/Bain remarks?"

Hoffa didn't need to definitely make such a statement - the facts speak for themselves.

"I want to bookmark that."

Be my guest. You'll never admit that you were wrong and exploiting this situation to engage in extremely divisive partisan politics.

"And that the connection between Rush and Holmes was not a rational concern, no matter what the party affiliation?"

What connection between Rush and Holmes - please cite your source.

"Otherwise, what is your beef at this point?"

Only what it always is - the low information, non-thinking people and those who attempt to exploit them.

Hoffa - You have become surly and abusive. You must be feeling cornered. I invited the reader to read the Doro blog and your comments. In a trial, I would read your comments to the jury and let them decide which side you were coming down on. You were certainly not taking Rush to task for his innane theories.
I suggest you try to understand that good investigators consider many factors in a crisis, run down leads and theories, hope to stem further damage, and do not hold back because somebody's feelings may be hurt. You seem to be utterly outraged, and maybe we need to tiptoe around you. I think your concern that I influence the low information non-thinking voter is really quite the spin. I leave that to you and McGuire. I believe I have made my valid points, and am not going to stay here all day and debate someone that has lost it.

@Dirk -

You're making illogical correlations because you're theory has been proven idiotic, you're not a big enough man to admit that you're wrong, and your rigid ideology prevents you from doing anything else except going all in on such stupidity and attacking others for calling you out on it!

Does Hoffa believe that some in Hollywood have a predisposed partisan political bias that is apparent in the product they produce - absolutely, and unashamedly so!

Did Hoffa ever state that he bought into or supported Rush's specific claims about the new Batman film - NEVER.

It's not Hoffa's role to "take Rush to task" for his comments, as Hoffa believes in the sanctity of free speech, one of the cornerstone rights of the principles that founded our nation. If you believe in censorship in the name of the 'greater-good,' it's your right to do so and espouse such a belief on public forums. But it's also my right to call you out on such an un-American position.

Good investigators work off the objective facts and available evidence. Again, you have nothing connecting Holmes to Rush, but keep on insisting that you do. For all you know, it could have been Obama's recent rant against successful people that set the guy off, but you never raised that possibility. WHY? It happened shortly after Obama gave that speech. Coincidence? Maybe Elizabeth Warren claiming to be a Native American caused him to start stock piling weapons and ammo.

Or maybe, the guy is just a nut!

What a child-like mind.

AWD - I am actually embarassed for the other extreme right wing commenters by you. You just cannot be real, but if you are, you are a menace to society.

Would you care to explain the school massacre in Dunblane Scotland then? A human being turning berserker is not unique to the US, nor is it limited to modern times.

Talking USA Randy.