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An Open Response to Tamara Grigsby's Call for Gun Control

Tamara Grigsby calls for feel-good legislation that builds on fear by inserting words such as school, movie theaters and Aurora shooting, simply won't have the intended effect .

Recently, state rep. Tamara Grigsby (D-Milwaukee) issued this statement regarding Wisconsin's gun control laws:

She starts by using the Colorado incident to call for an examination of Wisconsin's gun laws.  To start, the person who committed this crime appears to have been as law abiding and clean as you can be, and any amount of gun control wouldn't have changed the outcome. If Rep. Grigsby is talking about an all-out ban on guns, this killer was an intelligent person who had 30 homemade grenades, and could have easily done just as much damage using other methods, assuming he couldn't get his hands on any banned weapons.  (Which many bad guys do every day)

She then says:

Lax gun laws drive a U.S. murder rate that is almost seven times higher than the average murder rate of other high-income countries.

Comparing the rates of one country to another is an apples to oranges comparison.  There are simply too many variables that affect violent crime and murder rates in a comparison between countries, and gun control actually has little to no impact on them. Otherwise one could also point to countries that directly refute Rep. Grigsby's statement. Take Switzerland, which has a high amount of guns per capita and some of the most relaxed gun control laws there are (gun control is practically non-existent) and yet they have one of the lowest murder and violent crime rates in the world.  Or look at what happened to the violent crime and homicide rates in countries after they created a full ban on weapons, such as the UK.  Since the UK's ban in 1997, their violent crime rate is up 77%, and their murder rate shot up dramatically until about 2003 (it doubled), at which point it started going back down and currently is at a slightly lower level than in 1993.

"In the summer of 2011, Wisconsin passed concealed carry (Wisconsin Act 35). This new law allows people to carry guns in many public places, including bars and taverns, and to keep guns in cars parked in school, airport, courthouse, prison, and mental health treatment facility parking lots," according to a press release.

Here's a loaded statement that also has incorrect information.  To start, ACT 35 didn't make any changes to the laws regarding guns on school property such as a school parking lot.  Also notice how the statement should read "This new law allows you to carry guns in public places and keep guns in parked cars in parking lots."  But instead, it lists a bunch of places (even though it's talking about parking lots, not the actual buildings) that are intended to make the reader recoil in fear and horror in an attempt to tie CCW to places like schools, prisons, etc.

"Under this new concealed carry regime, 39,644 concealed carry licenses were issued in November and December of last year alone, and by April of this year 100,000 licenses had been issued,"  continued.

Yes, she actually used the word "regime."  I'm actually shocked she didn't manage to work in "AK-47" somehow.

"What this means is that thousands of more guns are out there, as a part of our daily lives. They are in our public places—places where we work, learn, socialize, and worship. And, yes, you can bet they are in our movie theatres," Grisby said, in the press release.

It appears Rep. Grigsby is unaware that the shooter in Colorado was not a CCW holder, and that the city of Aurora, CO, has a ban on concealed carry anyways.  But in an effort to drum up fear, she mentions "movie theaters."  She also seems unaware that in spite of all of these guns everywhere, CCW holders simply aren't causing any problems, though they have had several instances already in Wisconsin in which they stopped a violent crime.  In fact, according to the U.S. Dept of Justice and their National Crime Victimization Survey, an average of about 600,000 crimes are stopped every year by defensive use of a gun.  The Democrats promised us that Wisconsin would become the OK Corral, that shootouts would be rampant, and that we should all fear for our very lives as gun-toting CCW monsters would shoot us for no reason.  And yet, none of that happened.

"Our standards for legal gun ownership and for concealed carry are deeply flawed," said Grigsby, in the release. "Let’s not wait for the next massacre to talk about gun policy in Wisconsin."

Here is where I actually agree with Rep. Grigsby.  She's right.  Our standards for gun ownership and CCW are deeply flawed.  They are still far too restrictive.  This state, like many others have done, should at some point move towards constitutional carry in which you can carry everywhere, without restriction.  And you don't even need a permit to do it.  We have gone off the deep end when it comes to the 2nd amendment in this country, and even with Wisconsin's current gun laws, we have a ways to go to get back to that freedom.

Luke July 31, 2012 at 12:43 am
Once again, I am not talking about all the poor. I agree that most would like to find a way out of their situation. I also agree that we need to improve education and expand the job base. The difference is that I believe that, for a certain number of people, the system cheats them by catering to their biggest weakness, and thereby dehumanizes them.
Luke July 31, 2012 at 12:51 am
Lyle -
One more thing. My example of a person addicted to drugs, above, was not meant to be a discussion about the poor on drugs. Rather, it was meant show how some of the poor are addicted to government support, and to enable them is to stop their personal growth, just as if we were doing things that supported a drug addict.
oak creek resident July 31, 2012 at 01:01 am
Another liberal idiot who wants big government to protect him cradle to grave. Weak, pathetic, and an all out coward.
GearHead July 31, 2012 at 01:11 am
@Tao, clearly you have never given a moments thought to what would happen if we have civil unrest for a couple days. I can see that happening when Obama loses the next election. Are you ready for the "occupy" crowd when they start dismantling the infrastructrure? Electric, water, city hall? I have. And I don't give a crap when they start knocking over the easy targets like yourself. Can you handle 72 hours of darkness? I wonder.
Lyle Ruble July 31, 2012 at 01:11 am
@Luke...It is true what you say about those who are addicted to alcohol and/or drugs. They do have to hit rock bottom before they become motivated enough to finally tackle their dysfunctional condition, and for some they will never come to grips with their malady.
I also agree that the young man living in the parent's basement engrossed in the cyber reality is only being enabled by his parents to continue such. In that type of familial structure, the family is clearly dysfunctional. As long as his parents continue their support, he will not have to change. We could go through each scenario and point out how it is detrimental for reaching self sufficiency, which I think is tangential to our main discussion of creating a better society.
Taoist Crocodile July 31, 2012 at 01:11 am
Who's the bigger coward - someone who who cowers in his basement, surrounded by guns? Or someone who is enough of a man to go about his business without needing a security blanket / surrogate manhood?
Don't worry - I already know that you don't have the answer. George Zimmerman is your model of a strong, courageous man.
Taoist Crocodile July 31, 2012 at 01:17 am
Wow, GearHead - you tough talkers really are nothing but a bunch of scared little boys. Afraid that the hippies are going to come and plunder your arsenal? Get a life, and climb up to the bunker. Own up to the fact that you're secretly hoping that society falls down around your head, so you can pull your guns out and show us all how tough you are.
Seriously, you guys are pathetic. Grow up; high school is over, and all of the normal kids who picked on you for being awkward and creepy have no interest in trying to take your sad little stash of guns.
GearHead July 31, 2012 at 01:26 am
@Tao. I'm not worried about the stash. The looters will visit your personal gun-free zone long before they are tempted to try me ;-)
Luke July 31, 2012 at 01:32 am
Lyle-
But my point had nothing to do with the man living in his parent's basement, nor the drug addict, per se. Those were simply analogies involving people who are happy with dysfunctional lives, but not living the fulfilling lives they could have if they were given tough love. There are a large number of the poor who are simply more happy to live the way that they are, if the only alternative is to take a long series of steps to achieve a better life. They will do nothing for themselves, unless forced. In such cases, the system has dehumanized them, because given no other alternative, they would find a way to make ends meet, and would therefore live a better, more humane life.
Lyle Ruble July 31, 2012 at 01:56 am
@Luke....You know as well as I do that as a species we are able to adapt to almost any kind of environment. Our system is designed in such a way that it has created a permanent underclass. We have to come to grips with the fact that it is cheaper to society to permanently maintain this underclass than to deal with the social unrest that would occur to not support them. It's not right but it is the case. With the underclass they can be conveniently scapegoated as needed. Sorry for my cynicism, but a simple observation will confirm my position.
James R Hoffa July 31, 2012 at 03:12 am
So, do get to have and conceal carry my M-41A Pulse Rifle with over/under pump-action grenade launcher or not?
That's all Hoffa really wants to know on this issue!
James R Hoffa July 31, 2012 at 03:14 am
"Death is a primitive concept. I prefer to think of them as battling evil in another dimension!"
Dave Koven July 31, 2012 at 05:11 pm
Keith Schmitz...Re-read my comment. Holmes was an anomaly. No solution is going to be perfect, but it would be an improvement. If you were concealed carrying, and he knew it, I don't think that would have deterred Holmes. He was insane. He was also wearing body armor, as I understand it. Maybe you are a crack shot, but most people are not. Chances are your gun wouldn't have made as much of a difference as you'd think. About the most you could hope for is that the noise of your gun might break his concentration. Ultimately, I am trying to come up with an idea that would have a chance of limiting the amount of hand guns floating around a community or in the hands of bad guys. If you have suggestions along that line, please share them.
Greg July 31, 2012 at 05:44 pm
Dave, Body armor is not like a superhero type of thing. It only protects certain parts of the body, usually the vital organs. It does not stop all hits, police officers die while wearing it, soldiers die while wearing it. And most important, the impact from a bullet will hurt like hell if the armor does stop it.
...
Matt Stevens July 31, 2012 at 05:51 pm
In addition to what Greg said... He'd be dealing with a lot more than the "noise" from a handgun. Ever seen someone wearing bulletproof gear get hit by a 9mm or handgun? It is very painful. It does not make you a tank. It would temporarily incapacitate someone to be hit by that. It's meant to save your life, but you are often injured in some manner, and often doubled over in pain. It would have made him vulnerable long enough for people to take action against him.
greggo July 31, 2012 at 05:55 pm
Do you have idea what it is like to take a shot wearing a kevlar vest? Do you think the bullet bounces off like in your daily cartoons you watch? Are you 12 years old Mr. Koven? Have you ever shot anything above a .22 caliber gun?
greggo July 31, 2012 at 06:05 pm
"The logic of your response escapes me. Perception of risk is subjective and arming oneself in proportion to the perception of risk is logical. However, unless the perception is part of a consensus of reality, then it is nothing more than a self belief and possibly delusional."
Mr Ruble is acutely aware of the extremely obvious. Talk about a bloviating gas bag of pseudo intellectualism, Mr Ruble, no one is fooled by you.
Luke July 31, 2012 at 06:11 pm
Hint: Aim for the portion of the body NOT protected by the vest.
CowDung July 31, 2012 at 06:18 pm
Luke:
Aim for the center of his chest or the largest part of him that you can. Trying to take aim with a handgun for a headshot or other part outside the vest will more often than not result in a complete miss. As was pointed out before, a direct hit to the vest will likely be enough to cause pain. Repeated hits to the vest can incapacitate the target--at least temporarily.
greggo July 31, 2012 at 06:24 pm
I have seen what my .45 ACP handgun can do to targets at 50 yards....I don't care how much 'armor' you are wearing, you are going down. Only a child would think that armor would stop a mad man.
Luke July 31, 2012 at 06:24 pm
Cow:
I get your point. But since I will never own a gun, I would rather sit by somebody who does. They can make that decision.
Avenging Angel July 31, 2012 at 08:16 pm
Ditto for my 9MM. A shot to the chest would have taken him down, enabling escapes or someone shooting him in the face.
Felix August 5, 2012 at 06:11 pm
Semi-auto maybe......fully automatic no.................we'll never outgun the gov. no matter what we're carrying and other than that possibility - NO!
$$andSense August 5, 2012 at 07:31 pm
Shoot low well in front of the opponent.
Ricochets will take out the feet, legs and lower torso especially on hard surfaces. Patton used this as "marching fire" while advancing on enemy postions to scare and intimidate the opponent into seeking cover and ultimately surrender. In addition to the bullets or their fragments, paving materials, rocks, stones and the like, it will throw up a hailstorm of hurt. Marksmanship not a factor. They will go down fast. Will leave a brain and body for the law to prosecute though they may never walk again. Do you care?
Cynthia Barett August 6, 2012 at 10:42 am
Wow. The mouthiest bunch of scared neocons I've seen in one place for a while.
Brian Carlson August 6, 2012 at 11:19 am
I think that a large part of you fantasize about becoming guerillas in a pitched battle with a despotic government. Movies you have grown up with are rife with this plot. It aligns with the vigilante fantasy... another very popular movie theme. I bet that most of you tough guys have not been near a real war. My guess. I don't hear vets talking with your blood lust and bravado. They have seen what happens in conflict. You sound like fifteen year old boys.
Brian Carlson August 6, 2012 at 11:29 am
Matt you sound fairly intelligent. It's these macho boys that alarm the people who want more gun control. But it's the paradigm that is the real issue. Gun culture, hunting aside, is well reflected among this group of guys squaring up to see who has the biggest weapon. It's the belief that guns will solve some problem that doesn't work... Specifically, that guns bring security and peace. Gun advocates like to say... Guns don't kill...people kill. Of course people make guns to kill people so there is a bit of weakness in that chain of thinking. But...to the extent it makes sense... It makes equal sense to say that guns dont make peace or security. People do. The type of thinking displayed by a lot of your respondents is certainly not the type of thinking that leads to peace. Ask the Sihks right now about hate, malice, racism, bigotry, fear and the like. Mass killings return to Wisconsin.
Matt Stevens August 6, 2012 at 12:18 pm
The purpose of one owning a gun has many reasons. Self-defense is a part of security, in that it is an equalizer. Criminals are going to have guns. This is simple fact. Even if they're banned completely in the US, the criminals will still have them. This notion that criminals are suddenly going to start obeying laws because you ban guns is laughable at best.
"I think that a large part of you fantasize about becoming guerillas in a pitched battle with a despotic government. Movies you have grown up with are rife with this plot. It aligns with the vigilante fantasy... another very popular movie theme. I bet that most of you tough guys have not been near a real war. My guess. I don't hear vets talking with your blood lust and bravado. They have seen what happens in conflict. You sound like fifteen year old boys." I don't know anyone who wishes for that type of thing. You're trying to draw the connection that people who wish to carry or own weapons are also fantasizing about using it like some action hero in a movie. It's a nonsensical correlation. It might be what the anti-gun crowd likes to paint us as being, but there is no basis in reality.
Dirk Gutzmiller August 6, 2012 at 12:38 pm
Cynthia - I would reword your comment slightly in light of yesterday's gun + nut = tragedy.
"Wow. The scariest bunch of mouthy neocons I've seen in one place for a while."
Brian Carlson August 6, 2012 at 04:41 pm
I don't think you are reading your thread very closely if you think no fantasy is going on here. And are you honestly telling me you don't think through scenarios where you whip out your S&W or whatever and save the show? Come on. Gun ads are written to dramatize those eventualities... To appeal to machismo...to give you the impression you are the baddest guy on the block. Gun culture is full of this banter.

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